Melanie - 4, the Duke - 2

As Darryl attends to his wet basement, here is what happened Tuesday night...

First off, a big congrats to Chris, Rachel and Miriam as little Jonah joined their family early Sunday morning.

Melanie, the pride of New Brunswick, decided to join bike club. This was met with furrowing of eyebrows, but with her being an "excellent conversationalist" we all took it in stride. This was Melanie's 4th bike club event, 2 more than the Duke, and it showed as she remembered everyone from her last attended meeting and was saddened that Darryl was not there to convert her. She left all to soon, and tears were shed ... until next time Melanie.

It was nice to see the Duke out in full force and it was decided when quorum met that Duke is now the President of the Sushi club, henceforth relinquishing his Vice-Presidency of the Dog Club.

Onto actual bike news - Dieter put in his order for a new bike, the Vertex will be arriving to Home St. soon! We were all quite happy for Dieter, especially Melanie.

In other bike news, little M has her new bike at home, the 'little mermaid'. Dieter, Jon and Chris all agree it is very nice. For the record, it has 2 mermaids stickers - this was verified by lil' M. Here's hoping for good sidewalk weather!

It was good to see Bergen out last night, especially after his story of the flu. After a night in Plum Coulee that never really started, Bergen found himself out of commission for 3 days of work. These 3 days were spent lying in bed, staring, as it was to painful to read a book. Things were beginning to look up for Glenn so he decided to goto A & W and get a burger. Happy with burger in backpack, Glenn is on his way home down the back alley when a cop car pulls up to him and begins an intense interrogation. "WHAT IS YOUR NAME", "SHOW ME SOME ID" and "WHERE WERE YOU JUST NOW" are some of the things Bergen first heard from the boys in blue. To this Glenn explains he is on his way home after getting a cheeseburger from A & W. Then they demand to see the burger - Glenn obliges. As he is reaching for his ID, the second cop comes up behind Bergen and checks his belt for a gun. At this point, Glenn is a bit worried. Apparently, the Domo down the street was just robbed, and after this interrogation, the cops realize Bergen is not their guy. They leave with a parting comment of "Don't take this personally". Bergen finally gets home, eats his burger, and half an hour later, proceeds round 2 of this evil flu - no work the next day either!

Swatter sent his greeting via Duke - a consensus was met that Dave is still the dumbest 'dum-dumb' around.

The Dark was tasting alright. As was the Coors Light, that Melanie had

No peanuts this week.

Race this week - meet at Jon's @ 10am - off to the park.
p.s. James (apparently) is a cheater.

I'm out.

Mark/Marls

The big "V", peanuts, and other ramblings on a Tuesday night...

With Darryl out west, I get the dubious honor/chore of taking minutes, so here we go...

First off, a big thanks to the President as he stepped up and brought 2 bags of peanuts for the evening, and as grateful as we are to him, a big round of applause goes Lori, as she was the one who purchased salted, AND unsalted peanuts for FGBC. WE know why the President is really just a figure head in this institution - the real power is behind the scenes.

Continuing on with the President, talk turned to his recent vasectomy, and how the freezing REALLY didn't take all that well. At one point Brian yelped loud enough to merit four more shots of freezing - the surgery continued, as did the episode of seinfeld Brian was able to watch. Sweating profusely, and white knuckling his way through the rest of the surgery, all is done, until the first sample needs to be brought in.

At this point, the discussion turned to others who have had the surgery. Everyone agreed theirs went smoother than Penners, and in a few months, he could bring in his first sample. This is where the FGBC came in - we decided that we could potentially be a courier service for men who need to verify the surgery was done correctly. We voted Darryl to head up a committee to further look into this endeavor.

A wrinkle arose when Dave (Dieter) alerted the group that we would need a guide for our Tinker Creek ride, as much of the course is on private property. We waited for quorum, and when met, we decided to pursue this guide for our ride. Dieter will keep us posted.

Speaking of Dieter, he is still not happy with his current ride, and is in discussions/negotiations with James of Tinker Creek about a new ride - a Vertex (swell name) by Rocky Mountain. We were all excited for Dieter, and wished him all the best in this continued search for a new bike.

A bike maintenance day was proposed by Penner - this was met with great approval and excitement. Dr. Hubie coined it as a day of "beer and bike stands". This also was met with approval.

A discussion on dogs arose...Luke and the Duke are President and Vice President of this new chapter. Good luck gentlemen!

Turning back to bike related matters, our next race will be at Whittier Park on the weekend of April 3 and 4. Time and actual date has yet to be determined. Dr. Hubie will keep us posted.

That concludes this weeks meeting.

I'm OOT
Mark (Marls . . . get the spelling right Darryl)

Attendees: President, Juan, Dave, James, Chris, and Me

fgbikeclub.com or fortgarrybc.com?

Amongst other things, we debated what a new domain could look like, and be named like. The president advocated the latter because it leaves openness to other clubs with the fort garry prefix. Please register your opinions in the comments. It would cost the club about $30/year to go to a site with our own domain name.

Conversation rambled. There was no major agenda, what with the date discussion out of the way. Some of the topics were:

• merchandise. Marles is now heavily pushing the idea of FGBC stickers. Hopefully he will anti up with a little research on this.
  
• bike sale. Unger has an opportunity to purchase a bike for $1600 off. well, that leaves a price of $2400. actually, the deal is available to any FGBC member. Since it seems Unger will not be taking advantage of this obvious deal, you can contact him to get more details.
  
• member Jerry. had a little phone call with Jerry this eve, before the meeting. apparently he's in the club. It seemed like a good thing. He's already been riding. The issue was brought up as to whether there was space for two non-resident Loeppky's in the group. No decision was made.
  
• other regular items were brought up like Marles' single speed brake issue, location of our spring ride, etc.
  
• oh, Luke made it out. nice to see. so the discussion of fixing his bike came up again. Just as a reminder to you, the reader, it was put somewhat out of commission at last spring's ride... yes, that means he hasn't really ridden it since then, although that isn't ususally mentioned in such a forward way when the topic comes up.

Since this secretary will not be at next week's meeting, the decision was that Marles will take minutes. I think this happened because he left before the rest of us.

Present: Marles, President, Secretary, James, Unger, Jonny, Chris, Luke

the date stays! June 11-13, 2004 for the spring ride

With some amount of disbelief, let it be stated here, for the final time, that the date decided upon for the spring ride at last week's meeting stands. As we gathered this evening, there was a note of tension, nay, apprehension, that all last week's good work at discerning a date might be undone in a few simple words, like, "I can't come".
It is my priviledge to report, that even as the President brought out "the book", there was no single person present to throw a stumbling block into the finely tuned plan. While pertinent questions were raised: what about the people who aren't here? is this quorum? the usual... the response was in unison, "too bad, they could have come to the meeting, or sent their concerns by blog comment or email". It is destined to be a fine event.
In other commentary:

• Unger was encouraged to be proactive in assessing options for camping other than the Morden campground.


• Fundraising opportunities spread to the Fort Garry Bike Club Golf Tournament. It was thought that a club some distance from most population was highly prudent. Luke certainly has his work cut out.
  
• new merchandise was the topic of some discussion. Marles favoured many items, but started the discussion off with the thought of a new shirt. Hats (nice caps with mesh back and foamy front, old skool like), socks, gitch, and wrist bands were options mentioned. Stongly affirmed were the MEC long sleeve riding shirts. Members could choose their own colour/style and then we would gather them together to have them screened.
  
• some discussion of a letter to Fort Garry Brewing Company, about how they are infringing on our logo, or rather, how there seems to be some confusion over who's is nicer, took place. The motive behind such a letter was rather vague, but had to do with possibilities of sponsorship in the form of $$s for shirts, or maybe a free beverage. This is not new ground, but now that we have a VP (External) as part of the club structure, we may have the framework within which to begin such discussion in earnest.
  
• the idea of retaining legal counsel, (also not exactly new in the context of the previous point) was taken to a new level after the letter discussion, as names began to be bandied about. (This discussion remains "in camera" because we don't want a bidding war for the job to become ugly.) It seemed that a cap for being able to retain such counsel (not actually to do any work, but so we could say we have legal counsel) settled in at around $5, or a pint of Dark.

Present: secretary, Marles, Unger, Jonny, Chris, Penner, Jimmy

down to business

well, business was the order of the day. not did we hit five members present and the excitement about getting on planning the next "big event" was underway. there is a veritable list of business items.

Present: President Penner (with book in hand), Unger, Bergen, Marles, Juan, Jonny, Chris, James F, secretary.

1. site options. very near a consensus emerged that we investigate the Morden/Tinker Creek area as the primary option. The usual other options were voiced: Ingulf, Spruce Woods, Riding Mountain, Moab.
   
2. accomodations. with Morden as the primary site, Unger stepped up to the camping coordinator role. First choice was some piece of private bush, but it was deemed that the campground would likely be fairly low on guests at the date proposed.
   
3. date. yes, gentle reader, we did tackle the date question head on. Two dates emerged. Middle of May, or middle of June. The President's holidays fall right in the middle of those. At first mid-May was ahead, but, as is usually the case, time to ponder the issues coupled with a heapin' helpin' of group discernment, and the dates June 11-13 rang somewhat victorious. The potential conditions of any of the above mentioned trails, what with all the snow this year, and the area south of Morden's generous dollop of gumbo, made things somewhat more clear.
   
4. fundraising. enthusiasm coalesced over the, at first tongue-in-cheek, but eventually acknowledged, stellar idea of the Fort Garry Bike Club annual curling bonspiel. Leadership to this event was handed to numerous people as they walked in, and yet, it seemed like the idea was not home for each potential potentate. Clarity was ours after the hockey members arrived, discerned themselves out and passed the torch. When there was no one to pass the torch to, stock was taken over members not present, and the name Luke was gleefully proclaimed. "We have a winner!"
   
5. other.
   • club structure. a couple of new portfolios are in place.
     - Bergen: Vice President (Exernal) - we'll still need to work on defining the role, but the title is confirmed. With his upcoming position as assistant to the assistant for the VP (External) at the Uni, it should come into focus over the next year or two.
     - Unger: accomodations task force, and bun baking.
     - Penner and Barg: rediscerned themselves to the dog committee.
     - Fundraising for the next jersey: Luke
     
   • long term goals. - week long trip to Medora in about six years
     - two or three day road trip (ie. carry your stuff on your bike to a determined destination)
     - wheelie competition
     - contact Team Brown ( a job for the VP (external) perhaps?)

Good show FGBC! A fine meeting.

minutes - not really

the biggest action today is in the previous posts. most of that detail was reviewed.

In member news, Bergen blew his chance at a little EI by accepting a job at the Uni that makes him something like the assistant to the assistant to the VP, External. The President and I were trying to determine whether that doesnt actually make him VP, External of the FGBC.

The president also raised the question as to whether there shouldn't be a bit of a cabinet shuffle. General consensus was... no.

The president will also be bringing his datebook to the next meeting, so we will begin discussions of the spring event date in earnest. It may be too much to hope that we could keep this discussion down to five or six meetings...

"i guess you didn't get pixies tickets, i heard they sold out in 3 minutes!"

this is what i have been hearing since around 10:30 saturday morning. well, let me tell you about one of my greatest days ever...

it is about 6:30 am as i look at my watch, this is also the time i jump out of bed, throw on some clothes and run out the door - i have slept in on the biggest potential music-making day in winnipegs history!

wiping sleep from my eyes, i am screaming down osborne after picking up shane (brother-in-law) as we race towards a little known gem of an outlet to buy tickets - the winnipeg goldeyes stadium. as we arrive, we see 4 "dudes" in line...we approach with caution.

"hi" they say - we reply "hello" all is good. i look at my watch - 7:30, not bad, 5th in line, this should get us tickets...or will it! patrick (my new best friend) and zach have been there since 6:30 am, and this has granted them 1st and 2nd in line. we proceed to make small talk ie. weather, getting tix at this unlikely venue, what song will they lead off the set with. it is all good - for a while. then self-doubt begins to set in as we begin to question whether or not our early morning line up will get us tix. this is the first show of the pixies in 11 years! we had all heard the rumours of people calling from as far away as australia trying to secure tix. but no, we had to be rewarded for our dedication. we all decide we have nothing to worry about - we were going to be alright!

fast forward to 9:55am. dennis, the keeper of the gate/ticket overlord is amazed to see this many people in line for tix. he has never heard of the pixies. 9:59am...1 minute till we find out if we leave with smiles on our faces, or chairs being thrown through windows. 10am...patrick gets 4 seats in the 5th row. zach is next - he gets 4. then 2 guys whose names i forget get their tix. then, sweaty and excited i step up to the gate, cash in hand, i blurt out "4 tickets please". dennis then says to me "sold out". to this i say, rather loudly, "sold out...NO". immediately, the 30 people behind me fall dead silent. i feel really sick - i look at my watch, it reads 10:03:09am. then dennis says "would you like single tix". "YES" is my response. i get 4 single seats - i am beside myself...i am going to see the pixies!!!

i look back in line, shane has been able to secure 3 single seats. then ice bergen steps up - he gets 2 single seats. we all smile at each other. then the guy with the mullet behind glenn gets 1 ticket, he saw them in vancouver at their last performance ever. until now.

we go home happy and sweaty - that was really intense.

the pixies. april 14, 2004. burton cummings theatre. holy shit - i am going to see the pixies!

i'm oot
mark (marls)

bike advocacy geek

good heavens. i have just our man. too bad he lives in KW. check out this beauty article on Bechtel's dad on trev's blog!

The other "Mennonite Rider".

Can't Afford Enough Money for the Fucking Bus?

Or something to that effect were the words that came hurtling at me as I stood in the slush on the side of the road in front of my house in order to let the rusty red Taurus drive by. I was caught so offgaurd that all I could do was smile, hop back on my bike, and ride on. A month ago I was accused by a colleague at work of being inconsiderate because I ride my bike to work in the snow. On the one hand, I can't for the life of me understand what it is that arouses such passionate anger among those we are trying to share the road with? On the other hand, I know perfectly well as I almost daily unleash foul-mouthed tirades directed at moronic motor vehicles--though mostly underneath my balaclava.

Yesterday, a Duke University MD/PhD student set some sort of first in US legal history in becoming the first person to be awarded significant damages for an accident that resulted in using his bike as traffic. I think he got a quarter of a million dollars, but unfortunately also some severly broken bones. I suppose that's kind of like a backward step in the right direction.

Wait a minute. I'm supposed to be the technical director and race organizer, not the bike advocacy geek. We need someone else to take up the charge. Nominations will be held this evening at the F&H.

Landis wins in Portugal

Though I'm not ready to declare an end to mourning the death of Pantani, there is some significant reason to be happy right now. Floyd Landis, "The Mennonite Rider" and honourary FGBC member, pulled off a big win at the Volta ao Algarve in Portugal this past week. Floyd looks to be in good form early in the season, losing to Armstrong by only a second in the 24 km time trial, and clinching victory with an attack on the final mountain stage.

a day late with the minutes

Whoa, I'm slipping a bit. It's a busy week.

A fine gathering. Biking discussion did override the noteable concern about Pixies tickets. Of most interest was a turn in the discussion for the spring ride.

Spruce Woods was again mentioned, but then your humble secretary blurted something to the effect of, "but I don't want to go to Spruce Woods". With floor priviledges firmly inhand, said secretary explained that it might be nice if we find a location that might keep the technical level up a bit. This would ensure that the stronger riders would have diversions along the way that might keep the pack together. Without a number of technical stops, the only interesting thing for the strong riders would be to see how many miles ahead they could get from the others. "What about the "south of Morden/Tinker Creek" area?" asked the secretary. So, further discussion began unpacking the options in this part of our fair province. Stayed tuned. We may tackle the date question in the coming months.

Luke spoke about building a single-speed.... perhaps to avoid ever getting his bike fixed from the last spring ride.

Unger did a little show and tell with his new helmut. Original price $150, purchased for under one hun. Not to mention that he was the only member who rode to the meeting.

The race director did a little explaining on the ins and outs of the Tour de France, and brought up the death of the guy in the previous post.

Members gathered: Chris, Unger, Jonny G, the secretary, Marles, Luke, James and then the related hockey collective.

A time for mourning

I think it would be appropriate to have some sort of official time of mourning to honour the memory of one of cycling's great legends. Marco Pantani died this past weekend at 34. Pantani was the last winner of the Tour de France (1998) before some guy named Armstrong decided to make it his personal obsession, and was one of the purest climbers ever--kind of like our very own Luke Snider. Sadly, he was perhaps even more troubled and emotionally fragile than he was brilliant as a rider. While the results of an autopsy are not yet in, it's being suggested he either died of an overdose of anti-depressants or of a heart attack (which would suggest doping). See the coverage at Velo News or cyclingnews.com.

I don't exactly know what would be appropriate in terms of mourning. A black armband wouldn't exactly stand out given the colour of our jerseys. Perhaps wearing bandanas for our next few club rides would be a fitting tribute.

Icebike 2004 pics up

Well, I posted the Icebike pics from Jonny and Charlene. They are there as I received them...

I used a program to very quickly put them in gallery form which is much quicker than the way I've been doing it, but maybe not quite as nice. Let me know what you think of this gallery type.

Chris sent me a link to another picture where he's ahead of some famous cycling guy here in the city, but the link didn't work. Stay tuned. We'll figure it out yet.

little biking news, but the Pixies are coming

there was little news in our biking world. Chris crashed again, on the same corner that's burned him many times. He did show the wound on his knee. He also reported that the Icebike race was a fine experience. We should all be pleased with his results which are a launching the FGBC into new levels of status. I guess he would have had to tell someone that he rides with FGBC.... you did do that loud and proud, didn't you Chris? at least quietly?

I have been promised a few pictures of the Icebike event, but will not hold my breath for them to turn up in my inbox. Rest assured, they will go on the site if they do arrive.

so, the big news at my end of the table was the Pixies reunion tour which kicks off in, you guessed it, Winnipeg. this is significant because it was clear that we would be participating in our first bke club funeral if Marles doesn't get tickets. Torn between the ecstasy of imagining being at the show (which will take place at the Walker, a fine, small venue for such a show), and the debilitating fear of not getting tickets, Bergen and Marles were fairly roughed up.

I think a change in the weather will bring biking more to the forefront of discussions again... not to mention that it should take us a month or two to nail down a date for our weekend gathering...

Icebike

I'll try to write a longer update for the blog in the next little while, but for now let me just say that Icebike was a resounding success. The weather was great, and though the cold temps throughout the week resulted in smaller crowd there were still 100+ riders out on the course, which is the most in any race I've ever been to. 45 riders started in the Abominable (20k) men's category, including me and Jonny as well as a significant contingent representing the Tinker Creek colours. I'm happy to report that I finished first among those two groupings, and 13th overall. While I'm pleased with that, I'm still pissed for a spill on the last downhill section that screwed up my gearing and cost me two places in the standings.

Results are available online. Also, Charlene took a bunch of pictures on their new digital camera, which I told her to send you. But in the mean time, the MCA site has one picture with me and Hal in it. In case it's not clear whose who, I'm 2nd from the top and Hal is closest to the bottom. I couldn't find Jonny in any of the pictures they had up.

Postrace consensus among Jonny and myself was that there is no good reason we shouldn't make this a mandatory bike club event. The race course itself was far easier than what we did in and around Whittier park. So no reason to be affraid from the skills/technical standpoint. Charlene is also looking to make a statement in the womens category, having recognized a few women who finished at or close to the top and feeling confident that she could take them. That's the spirit.

We will give a fuller report on Tuesday. Later.

Chris.

-51 with windchill

sorry, this secretary took no notes last night. Perhaps others can chime in on the comments to remind about a piece of discussion that was significant. With today's temperature, it might be interesting to hear if Juan and Chris actually rode... guys? any comments? do you live?

Bike Club related:

Chris has sort of convinced Jonny to ride this sunday in the Ice Bike race. That will be the extent of FGBC participation in the event. It's a growing phenomenon however, I can feel that next year will be a big year at this race for the club. Results will be posted on the race page.

Marles is thinking about turning his current bike into a single speed and buying something new in spring.

Jonny had a very nice one hour clinic with the Olympia people on Portage. I forget the tech's name, but Jonny was allowed to watch/help change his cables and adjust the derailleur (I can't spell helmut [sic], but I love derailleur). Very nice of the Olympia people.

Other:

The Darkness Website Miss this new rock band at your peril, apparently. I hope to check the site out later today.

work issues continued to dominate discussion. Marles going for an interview today, Unger writing his ticket for a 22hr work week, Bergen doing well with uncertainty, Chris also living with some uncertainty. No work = No $$ for bike stuff.

the stinky dead guy was in the Collective

well, there was a bit of biking discussion, but larger discussions raged about where they found the dead guy who had been dead for quite a while. Marles insisted Ozzies, the general consensus from the rest was in the basement of the Collective Cabaret, just a block away.

Other significant discussions, or rather, ones I found entertaining were:

Marles holding forth on the state of the record industry, having been an insider for many years. The general consensus here is that the state is not, in fact, good. There seems to be a new level of revival in the indie scene, but it's an uphill battle. If he would open a record shop, it would have to be a specialty shop of some sort. Vinyl, or classical or something. In fact, opening a diner seemed a greater interest. So much for the music industry.

James continuing to insist, against a strong majority, that the second Matrix was worth the plastic it was printed on, and that the third Lord of the Rings was really bad. He seemingly was not in tune with the rest of the gathered assembly. The crowd was analytically sharp and condemned almost every piece of the second Matrix, and then in a group switch, went into a softer, forgiving, nearly sentimental stance for the efforts in the last Lord of the Rings.

Attendees of the club included: jonny, marles, the president, james, chris, juan eppstein, and the secretary.

From this reporter's standpoint, every effort at raising the issue of club participation in the Icebike race was almost ignored. I tried (which, admittedly is easy because I can't ride yet) and the technical/race director tried, but with basically no response. The president did at least say something, which is the same as every other time, "I've used up all my sick time for this year." Not really encouraging stuff.
Forge on Race Director. I hope I can be there to cheerlead...

the link for Simpsons and "Breaking Away"

Here's the link Chris was trying to get going in the previous post:
Simpsons and Breaking Away
It's a nice article.

A couple of things

First, it turns out my new helmet purchase was less of a deal than it appeared at first. Yesterday I got a bill from FedEx for an additional $25 for duty, etc. Should have seen that one coming. Just a warning to anyone who might be tempted to order from US online companies.

Had an adventuresome ride into work yesterday. Everything was going fine until Omand's Creek, which I was prepared to hike through. But I was not prepared for Wellington Cresc. to be such a mess. Lots of loose snow, and it was a sheet of ice underneath. It took me about 35 minutes to get in rather than the usual 15-20. There were good stretches where it was simply impossible to stay on two wheels. At one point--I guess I was looking a little bit screwed--a pickup truck pulled up beside me to ask if I wanted a lift. Turned out to be one of my students, who probably now thinks he's set with brownie points for life. But we all know better than that.

At school, one of my colleagues suggested that it was "inconsiderate" of me to have biked into work in those conditions. It seems Charles Adler had a little rant on CJOB on the drive in to work attacking all of Winnipeg's loyal bike commuters for shutting down the morning commute. It seems we staged a critical mass ride without even knowing it. I'm not sure if these sorts of vitriolic responses on redneck radio are a good or a bad thing. In the no news is bad news sense of things, I suppose its not all bad that people are talking about bikes as traffic. But in the good old USA, Clear Channel (a top 40/redneck radio network) is in trouble with the law for having several of its DJs making on-air encouragements to run cyclists off the road. A number of incidents in North Carolina and Texas seem to suggest that drivers were more than willing to heed their advice.

Spain apaprently just passed a law permitting cyclists to ride two abreast on all roads. Still this didn't prevent some pro cyclists out for a training ride from getting run into a guard rail by some overly aggressive old man. Seems the world has it in for us these days. But let's be strong, resist the coffin-driving evildoers, and stay on the narrow path.

Apparently last Sunday's episode of the Simpson's featured an homage to the old classic cycling movie "Breaking Away." Did any one see it or, even better, happen to record it? Perhaps we should hold a screening of the film as a Bike Club even in the near future. This could be the sort of Bike Club event that even the Duke might come to. In any case, see for more on the Simpsons and "Breaking Away."

Starting to get excited about the Icebike race. Anyone interested in in a ride this weekend?

last night's gathering

Nice to see Marles and the President out on a wintery Winnipeg evening. With no specific agenda, conversation went in the usual places... starting with, how's the Dark this evening. It was good.

Chris showed up with a lovely catalogue of cycling accesories. He just ordered a helmet from these folks. www.performancebike.com

There is some excitement building about the Icebike Race Feb. 1. Check the post below for the link to the site and the registration form.

Club members gathered: The president, Luke, Jonny, Marles, Chris, James, the secretary plus some of the usual hockey guys.

For the record, there was some debate as to when we began formal planning for last year's trip. A trip to the minutes archive revealed that minutes were first kept on March 25, 2003. That isn't to say that discussions didn't take place sooner... years sooner in fact.